So much so that I am looking to continue and widen this discussion with rgeards the formation of an online resource centre for Christian works under free(dom) licences.

You can find out more here: http://m108.crimperman.org

thanks
Ryan (aka Crimperman)

> First, I am sorry – I don’t mean to be snarky or hostile. I do mean to get you to look closer at what and how you wrote what you did. Maybe if you were an author you would have been more careful in your choice of words. That is where the comment about blogging comes in. Most people go “blahhhh” all over the blog entry without much thought or time spent on how well they are saying what they want to say, or whether it even says anything. Novelists take much more time and effort, thinking about pretty much every word they use (100,000 of them in a standard novel).

First of all, you have no idea how long or how carefully I consider my choice in words, nor do you have any idea how much time of effort I put into thinking about this discussion. By presuming the amount of care I place in my words you are belittling my position in this discussion. Please give me the benefit of the doubt in this discourse.

> I am not sure why you picked on authors in your complaining in the midst of all your programming stuff. I was really surprised that I didn’t see anything pertaining to Jesus in your information (your photos on Flickr are amazing, by the way; and your code is way beyond me) or anywhere else. I assume you are not big into Church or the Gospel and that is why you see it as hypocritical for a Christian to make money off any element of the Gospel.

This is a bad assumption, I consider myself a strong Christian who is “big into Church and the Gospel”. I also never mentioned the word “hypocritical”, and I don’t see it as hypocritical for a Christian to make money working in a Christian industry. I had hoped that my Christian outlook was evident from the scriptural references earlier in the comment discussion.

> Every time? Really? Why do you continue to read Christian books if it makes you want to judge the authors for perceived selfish attitudes in pursuit of their ministry? Do you include people who write for the secular market (shouldn’t the Christian be paid by the Christian market so he could write for free to the secular market – the ones who need the Gospel?)? People write books not just to get a message across (though that will invariably be there) but because there is freedom in Christ to see beauty in life and art. Maybe the stuff you read is all dry and boring – try updating your book borrowing habits to some of the contemporary stuff that is pretty exciting.

I admit, I should not have used the word “every”, because it doesn’t apply to every Christian book I’ve read. I will also point out that I do not think any less of Christian authors for the pursuit of their ministry; I don’t believe they are selfish and I do not presume to judge them. I think that you may have misinterpreted my argument as more judgmental than an urge to consider alternative licensing.

No, I do not include people who write for the secular market, the whole point of the argument was discussing monetary vs. spiritual gain of Christian writings and their licensing.

I feel like you are interpreting my argument an as ultimatum to Christian authors, when instead I was urging authors to weigh the benefits and risks of Creative Commons licensing as it relates to their message.

I also don’t find the books that I read dry and boring, even if they were CC licensed, I would still buy them because I enjoy them and wish to support the author.

> In spite of what you say about CC, etc you seem to be saying Christians shouldn’t be trying to make a living off of anything with a Christian message; that because it contains the Good News in whatever form we have to give it away. That is why I made the comments about Christian Bookstores (ever tried to run a business without making money? They are called charities!).

I don’t recall making the argument that Christians shouldn’t be living off of anything with a Christian message. I also don’t recall arguing that “because it contains the Good News in whatever form we have to give it away”.

> You are simply wrong on this point. There are many places to hear and see the Gospel, for free and to pay. Look at the work of the Jesus Film project – phenomenal. But that is only one avenue and it doesn’t reach everyone. And what an individual author does is something worked out between them and God. What right do I have to say what you should or shouldn’t do with your open source stuff? Do you give the security stuff you develop at work away to Christians (which is what you are suggesting for authors) or does the fact you are under a contract prevent that? Do you really think it is the author that demands this? What you put forth here is an old issue that has already been discussed and debated and is, in essence, old news.

I agree that what an individual author does is worked out between them and God, again I will reiterate that I was simply urging authors to consider an alternative they may not have though of previously, what they decide is up to them.

You have the same right I have to suggest an alternative course of action with my ‘open source stuff’, that is, to make your opinion known, and to bring it to those to which you wish to have it considered.

I do give away my security stuff. If you look on this site, every single piece of code I have released in available for free, under either a BSD or LGPL license. In addition, I publish source code to my github.com account available freely for anyone to take and use (Christians and non-Christians alike).

I don’t feel like this is an old issue. Search for ‘Christian writer creative commons’ and you will see there is not a large amount of discussion about this topic online. Even if it were an old issue, the fact that this post has spawned such a heated debate about the validity of my argument is proof enough that this issue still has plenty of discussion left.

> Following Jesus does not just mean we walk around in life as beggars, giving everything away that pertains to the Gospel. It does mean that all our focus in life comes from the focus of the love of Jesus. If a person can work in a Christian industry like publishing, Great! For you to beak about that is also your freedom, but why would you complain and judge when you admittedly have no idea about the industry? Here’s another tip: Christians aren’t perfect. Sometimes we do make mistakes, and it sounds like you are one of the guys that like to point those things out.

Again, I think you misinterpret my post as an anti-Christian-worker post. I am in no way anti-Christian-business/worker/establishment. I do not presume to judge anyone in a Christian position, and I don’t even consider my post a complaint, there were no negative feelings during the writing of this post and I apologize if it seemed as such.

I know full well that Christians aren’t perfect, being one myself. I certainly don’t consider myself someone who likes to “point those things out”. You are making the assumption that I feel like writers are making a “mistake”. I am not. I am disappointed that you think that I do.

> What you need to talk about is the industry, or “system” if you will (of which authors have little control) about licensing and contracts, etc. Do your research so you can do more than just say authors are bad. Then you can include the editors and marketing people and literary agents and sales teams in your opinions.

I have NEVER said “authors are bad”, and I am saddened that my discussion has been interpreted as such.

> If you feel guilty when you read a Christian book or a Christian CD or art that depicts pictures of Jesus or Christians that have price tags on them then leave those things alone. They are obviously not meant for you. Visit the 2nd hand stores where you can get much of that stuff for a buck or two. Find good blogs or forums that contain much of that content for free online.

I do not feel guilty with reading a Christian book, or listening to a Christian CD. I enjoy these things very much and delight in the fact that I can help support a Christian author/artist by my purchase of their work.

> One last question: Why do you exclude the fact that you have to pay for most Bibles, when those words of all things should be free?

I excluded that as I felt it was best saved for a separate discussion. If you would like to comment on that issue, feel free to.

First, I am sorry – I don’t mean to be snarky or hostile. I do mean to get you to look closer at what and how you wrote what you did. Maybe if you were an author you would have been more careful in your choice of words. That is where the comment about blogging comes in. Most people go “blahhhh” all over the blog entry without much thought or time spent on how well they are saying what they want to say, or whether it even says anything. Novelists take much more time and effort, thinking about pretty much every word they use (100,000 of them in a standard novel).

I am not sure why you picked on authors in your complaining in the midst of all your programming stuff. I was really surprised that I didn’t see anything pertaining to Jesus in your information (your photos on Flickr are amazing, by the way; and your code is way beyond me) or anywhere else. I assume you are not big into Church or the Gospel and that is why you see it as hypocritical for a Christian to make money off any element of the Gospel.

I see that attitude in 2 passages. The first paragraph you wrote says:

> So I’ve had this nagging feeling every time I read a Christian book (other than the Bible), something that the author intended to inspire, impart knowledge, hold accountability and so forth, of why would the author want me to pay to hear this? I don’t understand why a Christian author, intentionally writing a book meant for a Christian audience, licenses his/her work in such a way that the book will only reach people who spend an amount set by the publisher and/or author, instead of a broader audience.

Every time? Really? Why do you continue to read Christian books if it makes you want to judge the authors for perceived selfish attitudes in pursuit of their ministry? Do you include people who write for the secular market (shouldn’t the Christian be paid by the Christian market so he could write for free to the secular market – the ones who need the Gospel?)? People write books not just to get a message across (though that will invariably be there) but because there is freedom in Christ to see beauty in life and art. Maybe the stuff you read is all dry and boring – try updating your book borrowing habits to some of the contemporary stuff that is pretty exciting.

At the end you say:

> Did we focus on the wrong goal of writing a book for Christian audiences (by a Christian), that is, making money? Shouldn’t we be focusing on the message and not the monetary gain?

In spite of what you say about CC, etc you seem to be saying Christians shouldn’t be trying to make a living off of anything with a Christian message; that because it contains the Good News in whatever form we have to give it away. That is why I made the comments about Christian Bookstores (ever tried to run a business without making money? They are called charities!).

You are simply wrong on this point. There are many places to hear and see the Gospel, for free and to pay. Look at the work of the Jesus Film project – phenomenal. But that is only one avenue and it doesn’t reach everyone. And what an individual author does is something worked out between them and God. What right do I have to say what you should or shouldn’t do with your open source stuff? Do you give the security stuff you develop at work away to Christians (which is what you are suggesting for authors) or does the fact you are under a contract prevent that? Do you really think it is the author that demands this? What you put forth here is an old issue that has already been discussed and debated and is, in essence, old news.

Following Jesus does not just mean we walk around in life as beggars, giving everything away that pertains to the Gospel. It does mean that all our focus in life comes from the focus of the love of Jesus. If a person can work in a Christian industry like publishing, Great! For you to beak about that is also your freedom, but why would you complain and judge when you admittedly have no idea about the industry? Here’s another tip: Christians aren’t perfect. Sometimes we do make mistakes, and it sounds like you are one of the guys that like to point those things out.

What you need to talk about is the industry, or “system” if you will (of which authors have little control) about licensing and contracts, etc. Do your research so you can do more than just say authors are bad. Then you can include the editors and marketing people and literary agents and sales teams in your opinions.

If you feel guilty when you read a Christian book or a Christian CD or art that depicts pictures of Jesus or Christians that have price tags on them then leave those things alone. They are obviously not meant for you. Visit the 2nd hand stores where you can get much of that stuff for a buck or two. Find good blogs or forums that contain much of that content for free online.

One last question: Why do you exclude the fact that you have to pay for most Bibles, when those words of all things should be free?

Blessings in your pursuit of God.

> So… do you work? I mean, how do you pay for your internet to blog on (or cell phone, etc, etc). Just the fact that you are writing this online rules out the majority of people from reading this (in much of Asia and Africa and South America).

Yes, I do work, I pay for my hosting using my money, I’m not sure what ruling out the majority of people from reading this (23.8% of the world has internet penetration according to http://internetworldstats.com/stats.htm ) has to do with my argument though.

> My wife spent almost 2 years working full time hours to write her first novel. It is being very well received, and we have made many sacrifices in order for her to do this understanding that it is up to God to do with it what He wills – she is just obedient in the writing. It does not just happen like so many bloggers…

It does not just happen like so many bloggers? I’m unsure what you’re trying to say with this statement.

> You also assume you can only do one thing with any set of words. International rights on her non-fiction were signed off on so it could be offered as cheap as possible. While she may write a novel for income, she also does many forms of ministry for no charge.

I don’t believe that I stated ‘you can only do one thing with any set of words’, I believe I mentioned dual-licensing works, which sounds like what your wife has done with her book with International rights (if I understood correctly).

> You can’t make a blanket statement for the whole shebang, where for one person they can give stuff away while others shouldn’t.

I wasn’t making a blanket statement for the whole shebang, notice that in my arguments I did not say “All Christian writers should give away all their work for free”, I said that they should investigate dual-licensing, maybe releasing *some* works away under a CC license.

> You also have no idea what it takes to publish a book.

You’re right, I haven’t published a book.

> You are asking several hundred people in one company to give up their livelihood, who do the printing, editing, marketing, shipping, sales, etc. not to mention the closure of every Christian bookstore (I assume they would be better off working for a secular company?).

No, I am not ‘asking several hundred people in one company to give up their livelihood’, in the article I give an example of a CC-licensed book that I bought a physical copy of. I tried to show that making money and CC-licensing are not mutually exclusive. This argument seems to be taking my discussion down a slippery slope. Furthermore, the snarky-seeming comment about Christian workers being better off working for a secular company is completely unnecessary.

> There is a place for free stuff, and a place to generate money. It is what you do with any money (or stuff) you make that makes a difference. Is there no place for a Christian book with Christian values to sit on the same shelf as a secular book promoting secular values?

Exactly. This is what I was promoting. I don’t want you to get the idea that I was “everything free and nothing paid for”. I simply think that for some books, ease of distribution can be aided by using a CC license.

> There is a free medium in blogs, and many authors do put “free” stuff here for those who don’t want to pay. You live in a materialistic and privileged society, and that is the only reason you can make your arguments. The world is much bigger than selling books in North America.

I’m not quite sure I understand how living in North America (and a materialistic and privileged society) is the only reason I can make these arguments. Again I sense a hostility in your discussion (I can’t say for sure since we’re using text rather than speech) that doesn’t add anything to this debate.

Please feel free to reply to my comments, or clarify something I may have misunderstood.

1. Those who work should be paid.
2. Receiving money is not bad, in fact it is good.
3. In order to receive money from creative works we need restrictive copyright.

While I agree with points 1 and 2 I strongly disagree with point 3.
I recommend you read http://questioncopyright.org/understanding_free_content

My wife spent almost 2 years working full time hours to write her first novel. It is being very well received, and we have made many sacrifices in order for her to do this understanding that it is up to God to do with it what He wills – she is just obedient in the writing. It does not just happen like so many bloggers…

You also assume you can only do one thing with any set of words. International rights on her non-fiction were signed off on so it could be offered as cheap as possible. While she may write a novel for income, she also does many forms of ministry for no charge. You can’t make a blanket statement for the whole shebang, where for one person they can give stuff away while others shouldn’t. You also have no idea what it takes to publish a book. You are asking several hundred people in one company to give up their livelihood, who do the printing, editing, marketing, shipping, sales, etc. not to mention the closure of every Christian bookstore (I assume they would be better off working for a secular company?).

There is a place for free stuff, and a place to generate money. It is what you do with any money (or stuff) you make that makes a difference. Is there no place for a Christian book with Christian values to sit on the same shelf as a secular book promoting secular values?

There is a free medium in blogs, and many authors do put “free” stuff here for those who don’t want to pay. You live in a materialistic and privileged society, and that is the only reason you can make your arguments. The world is much bigger than selling books in North America.

Phil.